Need Advice

I've had a lower level VK contact me today, asking me why I hit her over and over, when she's a member of my army. I set this issue aside, letting it percolate on the back burner whilst I go about my day. I started to write her an answer, but I'm not *ABSOLUTELY* sure I'm right.

My army numbers over 1400 at this point. I don't do the battles very much at all, because frankly, I don't get dealt high enough levels to do me any good.

(I kinda-sorta play CA in all ways, dependent upon mood, status of monsters -v- my stats, etc.)

So I do as many Deathrune Sieges as I can. This person sent me a copy of my chain attack on her a day and ½ or so ago. I can only surmise this was during a Deathrune Siege. She's a much lower level.

I can't go through and pick and choose to make sure who is in my army and who is not while doing this stuff. (Well, I *could* but it would make the game hell, and I don't want to do that.) VKs are labeled, but I don't look for that, either, in battle/war or siege situations.

Am I doing anything wrong? I don't think so. What do YOU think?

First of all, you can't attack anyone in your own army. They are off your battle page the microsecond they join your army, so he/she IS NOT a member of your army. If he/she means you are both members of VK, I have been told again and again by players attacking me that there is no rule to prevent VK members from attacking other VK members. Secondly. in DRS, you do not play real players, you play copies of them! The players never know that you are hitting on them and their losses never show up on their battle pages or in their stats. Finally, the game allows all players above level 80 to attack each other.

But did you do anything wrong?.......I don't think VK members should make a habit of attacking other VK members, and I don't think players should make a habit of attacking players 100, 200, 300, or more levels lower than them, but that does not sound like the case. So no, I think you did anything wrong.

On a related topic, does anyone agree that VK members try to avoid combat with VK members?

Trinity wrote:On a related topic, does anyone agree that VK members try to avoid combat with VK members?

This would be near impossible since many VK are not tagged [VK]. And some of the ones that are tagged are not active [VK], but more hangers-on. I don't have a problem with VK members hitting me occasionally. I do think chaining and bookmarking are out of line.

Anyone who does not want to be hit should make it a point to join as many armies as they can, and this can easily be achieved through the Elite Guard links.

I got a very similiar complaint a few weeks ago. Below was my anwser.

I get my 50 points everyday....the game itself shows me a list of my choices of who I get to attack. I dont pick on anyone- it's just the choices I'm given. There is a strong 1 vs 1 element in this game. With virtually unlimited healing- it's really not worth getting upset about.
Phillip

he just recently wrote me back and he was all better. I do not attack known VK members and dont really care if I get attacked.

I agree with Phillip. What's the problem? Heal up and continue on.

I don't think there is anything wrong with chaining anyone who has put their name in my battle news. I think that is preferable to randomly choosing people off the battle page, but I don't see a problem with that either. I don't think there is anything wrong with chaining someone while they are chaining you or continually testing you without asking.

I know of at least two PvPers who use the monster list to hunt down people and join the monsters they are on so they can see when their targets are on line and PvP them. I think that IS wrong. People should spend their stamina on the monster and stop PvP while working on the same monsters unless they both have kill credit and they both agree to PvP. No one should use the monster list to hunt players.

Thank you, everyone. I think I'll direct my disgruntled player to this thread. You've all said it much more eloquently than I could have put it together. I'll try to make a note of the VK stamp. But hey, I'm one VK that won't spend the fp on changing my name to get the stamp in the name (although it's shown that way in all other games.....) So, while it reads 'kajira' I *am* VK. *shrug* Thanks again!

Princess Kajira- you are a rebel spy and a traitor to VK empire. Oops Sorry

LOL! Oh, my, Lord Phillip! Whatever shall I do?

in response to above. anyone please jump in to correct or correlate with me. I do believe there is a new method called pvpvm. i do believe its called player versus player versus monster. where the players deal damage to the monster and pvp the others players on the monster. I am not saying this is right or wrong but are some people confusing this gaming techinque with the monster battle.

I don't know if you mean me, but I was in the last PvPvM. I am not confused. In PvPvM all participants KNOW WHAT THEY ARE GETTING INTO before the battle, and all participants agree to PvP while also PvMing.

If I was not specific enough, I'll try to correct myself. What I disagree with is systematically and habitually using the monster list to scout people who are fighting monsters, use the monster link to check their keep, determine when they are online fighting monsters by looking at the attack record for the monster, and then attacking the players using the link to their keep from the damage section of the monster fight. In this type of PvP, the person who started fighting the monster had no intention of offering themselves for PvP. They are the unwilling, unwitting recipient of attacks because they joined a monster fight. This just screams wrong to me.

Does anyone think it is OK?

Trinity wrote:I don't know if you mean me, but I was in the last PvPvM. I am not confused. In PvPvM all participants KNOW WHAT THEY ARE GETTING INTO before the battle, and all participants agree to PvP while also PvMing.

If I was not specific enough, I'll try to correct myself. What I disagree with is systematically and habitually using the monster list to scout people who are fighting monsters, use the monster link to check their keep, determine when they are online fighting monsters by looking at the attack record for the monster, and then attacking the players using the link to their keep from the damage section of the monster fight. In this type of PvP, the person who started fighting the monster had no intention of offering themselves for PvP. They are the unwilling, unwitting recipient of attacks because they joined a monster fight. This just screams wrong to me.

Does anyone think it is OK?

Heh -- I personally agree with you and find it "despicable"; but, at its core, CA IS a combat type game and PvP certainly plays a part for some of the audience. So, there will be those who find enjoyment by "hunting" their targets; and the Monster battles are just another tool to be used in the hunt.

So, my best advice (and it seems to have worked for me) is ... if you don't want others to attack you, don't give them a reason to:

1) Maintain a low battle rank so that they will not get many if any Battle Points from you.
2) Keep your gold in the vault so they don't get any of that from attacking you either.
3) Don't PvP others, as you will appear on their battle list and they have every right to retaliate (and if they win, they will likely get back what they lost and then some).

Once you start PvPing then you best be prepared to defend your Battle Rank from others ... either by having a good defense; or by hiding. (Or simply attacking others to replace any lost battle points if you are not concerned about losses.)

Dave O wrote:
So, my best advice (and it seems to have worked for me) is ... if you don't want others to attack you, don't give them a reason to:

1) Maintain a low battle rank so that they will not get many if any Battle Points from you.
2) Keep your gold in the vault so they don't get any of that from attacking you either.
3) Don't PvP others, as you will appear on their battle list and they have every right to retaliate (and if they win, they will likely get back what they lost and then some).

Thanks for the advice Dave. And I'm glad it works for you. I had heard this before, and I even tried it out. I took a character from level 0 to level 84 without ever attacking another player. No demipoint attacks, no battlepoint attacks nothing... In fact, the character's attack stat is only 2, and the defense is only 50, I'm not sure it could attack. I never bought any soldiers except the minimum I needed to do quests. The result was a level 84 character with a record of 200+ wins, 400+ losses, and a rank one above yours! Looking at its battle news today, I saw over 90 attacks in the last two weeks alone.

Trinity wrote:

Dave O wrote:
So, my best advice (and it seems to have worked for me) is ... if you don't want others to attack you, don't give them a reason to:

1) Maintain a low battle rank so that they will not get many if any Battle Points from you.
2) Keep your gold in the vault so they don't get any of that from attacking you either.
3) Don't PvP others, as you will appear on their battle list and they have every right to retaliate (and if they win, they will likely get back what they lost and then some).

Thanks for the advice Dave. And I'm glad it works for you. I had heard this before, and I even tried it out. I took a character from level 0 to level 84 without ever attacking another player. No demipoint attacks, no battlepoint attacks nothing... In fact, the character's attack stat is only 2, and the defense is only 50, I'm not sure it could attack. I never bought any soldiers except the minimum I needed to do quests. The result was a level 84 character with a record of 200+ wins, 400+ losses, and a rank one above yours! Looking at its battle news today, I saw over 90 attacks in the last two weeks alone.

Is that right!

Wow, I guess it is more viscous at your level. Are you getting chained at all? The other factor (and I was a victim of this very early on until I resorted to hiding for several weeks) is that some folks push for those Battle Achievements early -- they just chain anyone they can beat and then move to the next target until they get their 5K Invasions / duels.

If you are subject to that type of activity, you will either have to beef up your defense or perhaps easier, is just make sure your Health is <10 before you log off (you will be hiding and others will not be able to attack you.)

It is more viscous now Dave, and that is part of my point. In the past, there were no armies of 501 phoenixes at level 30, no generals at level 50, and people usually left you alone if you left them alone. Now the same rules don't apply.

Not all players have the option of avoiding rank. I fortify on monsters, so I have high energy and defense. I was "bumped up" to my last two ranks by people attacking me and losing, not by me attacking anyone. I do not understand why the same players, some as much as 200 levels and 5 ranks higher than me, attack me 6-8 times a week when they lose every time. They keep shoving 300 battle points a week down my throat.

I used to attack back for one duel and one invade to show them I could beat them and to discourage future attacks. I then would send a friend request. The comments I got back from some people could not be repeated. Now I don't even bother to attack back, but they keep visiting. It just makes no sense to me.

I am in no way endorsing this behaviour, just explaining a possibility.

At this point in the game, there actually is a benefit to "helping" opponents rank up. There are few high rank targets so as long as you're at the bottom of a tier, you can sit there and bump others up. Some might use an alt to achieve this. This increases the number of BPs received from hitting you with a main account.

Trinity wrote:They keep shoving 300 battle points a week down my throat.

I need those battle points... link them to me... please!

Trinity wrote: I do not understand why the same players, some as much as 200 levels and 5 ranks higher than me, attack me 6-8 times a week when they lose every time. They keep shoving 300 battle points a week down my throat.

I used to attack back for one duel and one invade to show them I could beat them and to discourage future attacks. I then would send a friend request. The comments I got back from some people could not be repeated. Now I don't even bother to attack back, but they keep visiting. It just makes no sense to me.

That is VERY strange behavior -- and I recall others having reported "suicide chainers" before on fb -- never did understand the point of it. The type of responses you are receiving from these folks is even more disturbing and seems to indicate a bit of "instability" in my opinion.

Right now, I'm sort of in that "comfort" zone where the ones who CAN beat me usually won't bother; and those who are willing to bother, usually can't beat me. I'm not getting 300 BP a week, but I am doing ok.

I hope this resolves itself for you -- doesn't sound like you are having very much fun.

There's no way that kajira's trouble happened in a raid. If it was only a day and a half ago she ought to be able to remember, if not the exact names, then at least whether or not she went attacking in that general time. And further she'll know how she attacks. I've heard people claiming that raids were the cause of heavy attacks before. The only way that could possibly happen is if you click through the link in the attack screen, go to that persons keep and attack them from there. Had I done something like that I'd not be terribly surprised to find objections to my behavior. If you don't overattack people then you know that any claims that you did are bs. If on the other hand you attack people until you're out of stamina or they're dead/too injured for you to attack them any more, and particularly if you do it to such an extent that you can't even remember to whom you've done it, then maybe its crocodile tears that are being shed. If the idea of going after folks several hundred levels beneath you doesn't seem like just a gross violation of a decent persons sense of fair play, then there's something wrong with you. We teach even young children that being a bully is wrong and that they should "pick on someone their own size." How about this, there are folks building monstrous pvp profiles that would probably welcome a little competition. The gnome, mursilius, jack, hitman, and sparks have all got some pretty serious builds. They'd probably welcome a little sparring. If you must go after folks several hundred levels beneath you galatea, ricbot, and ginger are all a handfull. If you can beat them plenty of battle points can be found there. Or is that sort of challenge not what you are looking for? Or is it that by selecting folks several hundred levels beneath your level, you are just cherry picking victims that you know have no hope of being a challenge? That I'd at least understand, not respect, but I'd understand that.

This in-team fighting thing seems to me to be another no-brainer. With the possible exception of folks that have disputes preceding group membership you shouldn't be fighting folks in your clan/guild. . . whatever. And even with such a condition, you will cause trouble extending far outside the 2 of you by maintaining belligerence in clan, because unless we start kicking people out, people will have a hard time remaining neutral. If they are not in your team through an oversight then try to correct that before there are completely preventable but hard to fix problems. Even for folks that I think are posers, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. If they're occupying spots on your fight list, just join them to open spots up. Here's a generic elite link:

http://profile.myspace.com/Modules/Applications/Pages/Canvas.aspx?appId=183136&pm_cmp=mdp_183136_Activity&autoInitiateInstall=true&appParams=%7B%22sb_url%22%3A%22party.php%22,%22twt%22%3A%22jneg%22,%22user%22%3A%22MSID%22,%22lka%22%3A%22MSID%22%7D

If you can find an elite link in someone's stream, then use that, otherwise insert the profiles number in the 2 spots on the bottom line where it says MSID and then follow that link. That'll back door you into someones team and remove them from your fight list. That link also neatly resolves issues with someone whose profile is set to private.

Mikel wrote: If the idea of going after folks several hundred levels beneath you doesn't seem like just a gross violation of a decent persons sense of fair play, then there's something wrong with you. We teach even young children that being a bully is wrong and that they should "pick on someone their own size."

Well, let us be fair here.

1. I would have to look pretty hard to find another my "level" to fight -- most are already in my army.

2. I am attacked several times each day my those "several hundred levels beneath" me. Thus far I have not retaliated -- no interest in it for now ....

But, there will come a point in my development, when I DO become interested in PvP and when that time comes -- if you show up on my Battle News -- you'd best have a good defense because I will test it in return. I won't chain (unless 3 attacks is "chaining"); unless of course I am chained first (and can win).

3. In PvP, level is not a good measure of "size". Many (but not all) of those higher level folks got there by ignoring ATT/DEF (which is why many of those lower level players enjoy attacking and beating players "several hundred levels" above them). But, there comes a point in most every PL's "career path" where they start adding to ATT/DEF and those two stats can be built up pretty quickly if necessary -- and they will be returning some long overdue beatings -- I pay you now, you will pay me later.

You will agree I must assume that with leveling comes points. The fact remains that if someone never does a mission, never gets a medal, never finishes an achievement, they still get 5 points per level. That's perhaps the best, most easily understood measure of various profiles. It says more about their overall points than bsi, lsi, or tsi. If a person has opted for a power levelers build, they implicitly understand and cultivate this. A relatively miniscule bsi from a profile with a factor of 5 or 6 times those leveling points accumulated is in a decidedly advantageous position. That's what they're counting on. I think you'll agree with that as well. More is better than less right? It's only in the topsy turvy world where somehow any old thing that comes into their head to do must be ok because who the hell can stop them? Or maybe it's just a matter of people who aren't the ones being attacked just being apathetic and unwilling to point their finger at some of the more recognizable names in the app and say "You are wrong. What you're doing is wrong." Some stuff is just unacceptable behavior. It's because of jags doing stuff like that that I HAVE to build solid pvp profiles or just be a victim, when I really don't have the patience for full on pvp anymore. It's really a pain in the ass sometimes with all the extra details. Acquiring 13 Chases geez, the time required. . .but I digress. My cuddly little 140's to 180's profiles see plenty of level 150 to 250's come up but somehow there's never been an 80 complaining about me. Hmm, why do you think that is? So the 80's appear for the 300+'s but not to the 100's?

I'm just not buying the poor little level 500 story. Maybe it's been so long since you were a level 80 that you don't remember. I can tell you that most of the losses that I've received came within days of hitting 80. I don't recall ever hearing of a 500 ever complaining about being chained by a level 80, nor a 400, nor a 300, nor even a 200. Those fearsome level 80's picking on the toothless 500's again huh? Really? Is that what you'd have us believe?

It's my opinion, that some "enterprising" folks systematically seek out lower level profiles for easy opponents. Further I believe that monsters are routinely used as a source of "hunting" targets and yes that includes raids. "If they're in the 90+ category that means the game will let me hit them right?" I'm guessing the thinking goes something like that, not sure though, don't think lizard fluently. In any event, we ought to remember that there's a person represented on the other side of that profile link. I understand that the cc'ers aren't about waiting, everything needs to happen now. So the difficulty in finding targets that find them a bunch of battle points that they can beat without fear of reprisal for their routine overattacking, or chaining if you have a taste for euphemisms, leads inexoriablly towards lower levels as targets. Pick a monster with a substantial quantity of just-entered-the-gauntlet profiles as post something in the chat. I bet almost all of them have battle news from the past few days of a grossly higher level, that never seems to appear on their battle page, but yet somehow managed to find them for excessive attacking. I bet not too many survive the first couple levels of the gauntlet without picking up their "humility" achievment. 2-3 taps and not too many people will complain, they'd probably prefer to have won, but won't really complain. 10 or more is just callous and you can't really be surprised when that upsets people.

If we wish to have a pleasant experience it should start with our own actions. If we'd get upset about it being done to us we probably shouldn't do it ourselves. And you are too correct Dave, that the victim today may become the victimizer tomorrow, or maybe even today from a less squishy profile. Some of us remember and are building with a density that is now beyond the reach of many power levelers. Spent it all on energy and stamina did ya? Can only level once or twice a week unless you buy fp refills ey? Heh. Excellent.

Heh -- don't misunderstand me. I do know that there are people who "abuse" their power. Heck, when I first started, I had to go into hiding for several weeks until Mike "The Beast" got his 10,000 victories for the Battle Achievements. It is all part of the game.

No, the L80's or even the L200's don't "bother" me much -- I have a VERY LOW Battle Rank, so they don't get much in return for their stamina -- and lately they have been getting even less because they are losing. As I've stated elsewhere ... those who CAN beat generally do not bother (waste of Stamina); and those who bother, generally can't beat me (only the lower BR would consider me a viable target, and most of them do not have enough ATT/DEF to get through -- or else they'd be higher ranked, which would put them into the catagory of those who don't bother ...)

I understand perfectly well the nature of the slow leveler -- had a pretty darn tough "Wall" on FB -- and yep -- will agree with everything you stated from that perspective.

And because of that -- I decided upon a PL type here on MS ... have not regretted that choice. And for the record, I don't purchase FP; never have, never will. When you have 1500+ Energy and 1000 Stamina, they are easy enough to get in game if one wants them. I used to be a fanatic about collecting them -- but no more -- I've decided that battling the bigger critters is more fun. However, on occasion, I decide to ramp things up a bit and you'd be surprised how quickly a PL can level when they set their mind to it.

Yes, every level comes with 5 skill points -- but honestly there are A LOT of skill points that come from things other than leveling -- and I'm pretty sure that your average L80-L200 player has MORE Skill points per level than I do. I know my fb Wall certainly did ...

Right ... I think a good PvP build is the Glass Cannon (ALL Attack). Mainly because it uses "hiding" as its defense and even an L600+ can't hit you if you are hiding ....

In my experience I don't got after people who have the [VK] tag unless there's absolutely no one to hit for a certain demi point. But some don't seem to feel the same way.

Victory! You were challenged by {VK} IcaPattern22
You defeated your enemy, taking 4 damage and dealing 12 damage to your rival. You gained 3 experience points and $115,000. You have won 16 Battle Points!

Victory! You were challenged by [VK] Minister Q Hill the Canes
You defeated your enemy, taking 6 damage and dealing 10 damage to your rival. You gained 1 experience points and $115,000. You have won 12 Battle Points!

That's just 2 examples. Sometimes I retaliate, other times I don't. But i don't chain them. I think I'll start though. If they're gonna hit their own clan I shouldn't mind chaining them into oblivion, eh? Especially since they give me such wonderful BPs.

I am Ric, Trinity II, in the game. When I joined VK, I put the VK tag on and I changed my main character's name as well. Previously, it was called Ric Bot 001. My alts are Trinity Hitter (monster fighter) and Trinity Battle Points (an assassin).

I have a solution to all these attacks for battle points if people can just wait.

Trinity Battle Points is a level 74, rank 13 character I had previously abandoned because I did not like the build. I am marching it to level 80 as fast as I can. I am doing this with the intention of posting a keep link for it in the tourney grounds so people can chain it and get as many battle points as they want. It has 600 attack, 20 defense, and an army of 250, so it should not be too hard to beat. THIS IS NOT A TEST CHARACTER, it exists to be chained. I will not attack back except to hit you once to let you know that I am all healed up and ready to be chained again. Constant chaining of a rank 13 character could raise you all the way up to Duke if you thought you could defend that rank. I will explain it in more detail when I get it to level 80. Please be patient.

heh -- a nice thought, but one (1) toon will not satiate the appetite of all of MS CA! I suspect it will spend most of its time as "Dead or too weak to battle"; but thoughts do count.

It would be like shooting fish in a barrel.